Delaware: Property Assessment Working Group

Representative Romer (Delaware Legislature)

And we had to move this to virtual. I didn't want to cancel today because I didn't want to lose momentum. But we're doing the Biden groundbreaking for the new Biden Hall, and it's in my district. And so I skipped like the breakfast and all that kind of stuff, but I did want to go to the groundbreaking. So we're gonna, we're gonna do this quick. We just wanted to make sure that we didn't lose the momentum, though, of the meeting. So thank you to everybody for jumping on. It looks like we don't— do we? We don't think we have— do we have quorum? I'm going to— I'll just start taking roll, and it's going to be a little out of order because I'm looking at the attendees on my phone. But Representative Romer, present. Representative Spiegelman?

Jeff Spiegelman

Present.

Representative Romer (Delaware Legislature)

Representative— Senator Mantzavinos? Absent. Senator Buckson? Absent. And then we have Gina Jennings.

Katrina (Proxy for Gina Jennings)

Her proxy, I believe.

Representative Romer (Delaware Legislature)

Oh, okay, or her proxy.

Katrina (Proxy for Gina Jennings)

Present.

Representative Romer (Delaware Legislature)

Hi, Katrina, thank you.

Katrina (Proxy for Gina Jennings)

Hi.

Representative Romer (Delaware Legislature)

Susan Durham, or proxy? Okay. David Del Grande?

David Del Grande

Present.

Representative Romer (Delaware Legislature)

Present. Christian Willauer? I see you, Christian. I'll mark you present.

Christian Willauer

Present.

Representative Romer (Delaware Legislature)

I got you. Janelle? Absent. Secretary Smith?

Secretary Smith

Present.

Representative Romer (Delaware Legislature)

Present. Bob Older?

Bob Older

Present.

Representative Romer (Delaware Legislature)

Present. Justin Myers? Justin Imer, sorry.

Justin Imer (IAAO)

Present.

Representative Romer (Delaware Legislature)

Present. And who else are we missing? Oh, Richard Morse? Absent. Okay, I do think we have quorum, so we're going to get started. Everyone had a chance to review. Did I miss anybody? Oh, Stuart Ramsey. Stuart Ramsey, I'm sorry. Just for everyone's knowledge, Stuart Ramsey is going to be taking over for Sydney from the Farm Bureau, and Kate has had that appointment updated from our speaker. So, Stuart Ramsey?

Stuart Ramsey (Farm Bureau)

Yeah, very good. Thank you.

Representative Romer (Delaware Legislature)

Thank you. Welcome. Um, okay, so everyone got the minutes. Um, other than adding Christian Willauer to the attendees for the last, do I have a motion to approve with that change?

Committee member

Motion to approve the minutes as amended.

Stuart Ramsey (Farm Bureau)

And would I have actually got the minutes? Maybe you could send them to me after the meeting.

Representative Romer (Delaware Legislature)

We'll send them to you after the meeting. And if you would like to just abstain for today since you weren't in the last meeting, um, That's typically what we'll do, but we'll make sure you get a copy of the minutes.

Stuart Ramsey (Farm Bureau)

Right. Last meeting was the first meeting?

Representative Romer (Delaware Legislature)

No, that was like our 5th meeting.

Stuart Ramsey (Farm Bureau)

Wow. Okay.

Representative Romer (Delaware Legislature)

That's okay.

Stuart Ramsey (Farm Bureau)

I'll talk to Cyndie.

Representative Romer (Delaware Legislature)

That's okay. We'll get you— you know, we'll send you all of the minutes, like, from the past meetings.

Stuart Ramsey (Farm Bureau)

Will that make it ours?

Representative Romer (Delaware Legislature)

What's that? Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes. And feel free to give me a call if you want just like a A quick, you know, 30-minute kind of tutorial on where we've been. I'd be happy to do that. Great. Okay, we'll take roll call on the minutes. Representative Spiegelman?

Jeff Spiegelman

Voting yes.

Representative Romer (Delaware Legislature)

Voting yes. Representative Romer? Voting yes. Senator Mantzavinos? Absent. Senator Buckson? Absent. Secretary Smith?

Secretary Smith

Yes.

Representative Romer (Delaware Legislature)

Yes. Katrina? Well, Katrina, we'll just have you abstain as well since since, you know, you're the other proxy today and probably haven't had a chance to look at the minutes. Christian Willauer, with the change adding you? Yes, I can see your lips move. Okay, Bob Older?

Bob Older

Yes, sorry.

Representative Romer (Delaware Legislature)

Yes. David Del Grande?

David Del Grande

Yes.

Representative Romer (Delaware Legislature)

Yes. Susan Durham? And Gina Jennings will do the proxy. Justin Imer?

Justin Imer (IAAO)

Abstain.

Representative Romer (Delaware Legislature)

Abstain. And anyone else? Did I miss anyone? Okay, I received the required number of votes. We'll pass. We'll agree on the minutes. So they have this, right?

Kate (Committee staff)

Yes.

Representative Romer (Delaware Legislature)

Okay, so Kate's going to share her screen. Really, the goal for today, because I know we have kind of an abridged timeline today, probably needing to leave at 10:50, is We want to focus on 2 things. There's been a lot of conversations over the past meetings where we've been talking about some, obviously, the standards and having good robust conversations, even when the whole room disagrees with me, and I have heard those things, and it's really been an education. And so, so I really appreciate those conversations. 2 of the things we want to talk about today, and some of this timing is Particularly relevant because of the Governor's recommended budget and also because, you know, we are entering those times where we start to have conversations with the Governor's office. And so 2 of the things that we are going to be discussing today, can they save the screen? Okay, we'll share the screen. Is to try and make really 2 immediate decisions, excuse me, decisions if we can. The first being, we want to look at recommending a state lead. I think in our conversations we have figured out that I don't think we're gonna, you know, have everything answered in this working group, right? I've said this multiple times before, but, you know, it took 40 years to create this problem. We're not going to fix it in, in 1 or 2 general assemblies. But I do think that the work that has been done in this group is strong and has been collaborative. And so one of the things we want to look at is potentially adding a dedicated state lead to coordinate the assessment improvements and then further develop those policy discussions that we've talked about as far as, you know, we've discussed things like the, you know, the sales validation and the income and expense and the GIS. So there's a lot of work that's going to have to get done to coordinate between the counties and within the state. And to have a person dedicated to that is something we want to move towards that can pick up really where this working group will probably leave off unless we end up just having this working group be for years and years. And we want them to also further explore that oversight framework. So that's really the first discussion we want. We would then need to also determine where that sits. We had the conversation with Secretary Smith about, you know, maybe that's not necessarily the right place. Maybe land use or Office of Statewide Planning under OMB is like— these are still discussions that need to have happen. But I wanted to get a pulse on the group of, is this, is this an area that we want to move forward with? And I'd just like to open it up for discussion at this point. The other thing I did want to note We're going to talk about the second. Yeah, we can kind of keep going back and forth. The second thing—

Kate (Staff)

Here are the items that we kind of had in mind for what the state lead would begin to coordinate. Yeah. I didn't want to jump ahead.

Representative Romer (Delaware Legislature)

No, no, no, I know. It's because I didn't discuss the second thing, but I think we should just kind of keep focused on the first. Is really, yeah, Kate breaks this down a little bit better. And not that we're going to have all the answers, but, you know, We are in a situation where 49 out of 50 states have some sort of statewide coordination. And so I, you know, I think this could be a good step forward in getting us closer to that. Bob, yes.

Bob Older

So I guess my one concern is, and I wasn't able to speak last time because I was involved in something, and I think Jeff Spiegelman made a comment about this at the last meeting, but it's been a minute, is that My concern with some of this, and mostly with that GIS, is that I've heard from a lot of our small businesses and actually even homeowners that when the GIS made a small error, it increased the value of that property considerably. And I'm a little concerned that if we don't have any kind of either oversight or there's this mandatory finding system that I understand that is being put in place, I think we need to look at that. And have some kind of an appeal process that's easier to use.

Representative Romer (Delaware Legislature)

Do you mean an appeal process outside of the county's appeal, standard appeal process?

Bob Older

Yeah, because like, for example, I have somebody that called me the other day and told me that they live in the city of Wilmington and their assessment caused their taxes to double from last year to this year. And they don't think that there's something that's right. And they've already tried to do an appeal, but it's so complicated in the city that they're having just so many issues. And then, you know, I was looking at— I forget if it was Jeff or somebody else that mentioned this— the daycare thing that got A huge tax increase. You know, I just think that we have to have a process that, um, that it's not just solely on GIS or, or something of that nature, and that we have to look at if there's a percentage over a certain percentage that goes up, that we have to— it automatically flags, uh, a— some kind of an, um, of an audit or something.

Representative Romer (Delaware Legislature)

And I think, um, You know what we're talking— yes, thank you for that. I think what we're talking about now is that, is putting basically somebody in the state, you know, responsible for reporting back and working with the counties on what type of changes would be needed, whether it's policy or whether the state, you know, I think this is really just a jumping-off standpoint. It's one piece getting us closer to have somebody help have it be their job to coordinate all of that, to identify, hey, the counties are having this issue, or homeowners are having this issue, and that that's not necessarily so specific to that homeowner but more systemic. Justin?

Justin Imer (IAAO)

Yeah, I think this role would be more of a quality control role to make sure that those issues don't occur from the state's perspective, kind of just helping the counties out with, hey, have you looked at You know, this issue, we're seeing values go up in this area or whatever might be going on and just pointing out potential issues to the county so that way they're aware of them.

Representative Romer (Delaware Legislature)

Representative Spiegelman.

Representative Romer (Delaware Legislature)

And I think based on this, these 5 areas, you know, that you're looking on, and with the help of Justin from IAAO, we could, if the group decides this is a way to move forward, at least for this particular fiscal year, we could work on Really like a job description of what that role would look like and offline, you know, put something like that together.

Representative Romer (Delaware Legislature)

Yeah, Representative Spiegelman, did you want— oh, I'm sorry, Justin, is that— yeah, Justin, and then Representative Spiegelman.

Justin Imer (IAAO)

Yeah. Yeah, there should be guidelines. There should be policy guidelines from that. You know, if that's a, you know, there's a director of property valuation or whatever it is from the state. They would come up with kind of policy guidelines and hopefully create some consistency for the county too, because the last thing you want from the county standpoint is the ball moving constantly and you're trying to figure out, well, oh, they've got different opinions about this or that. So hopefully there's some written policies there that are going to be consistent. And you would have one individual or maybe a group of individuals there, you know, kind of guiding that. And to the point about, you know, Tyler, it might be that Tyler isn't the contractor either. It might be another contractor. So, You can have inconsistencies with different contractors too. And so having that one entity that's a little more consistent and can kind of keep everything moving in the same direction, I think would be good from a taxpayer standpoint, just of consistency and knowing that things are kind of being watched over.

Representative Romer (Delaware Legislature)

Representative Spiegelman?

Jeff Spiegelman

Yeah, I'm trying to see, I'm trying to think of what other state positions are quality control over what are essentially county operations. And the only thing I can think of that comes close, unless I'm wrong, if somebody can think of another one, but the only one I can think of that comes close is the Office of the State Ombudsman, which has kind of authority advisory role. I'm not really sure exactly what its role is, but over the HOAs, they're not county, but they're HOAs. If somebody can think of a different office, let me know. I'd prefer not to reinvent the wheel.

Representative Romer (Delaware Legislature)

What about, what about like Homeland Security as far as like police? Because, you know, we technically only have one state police agency, just state police, but We do have counties, municipalities, but I understand your point. I understand your point. Okay, it was Christian Willauer and then Stuart.

Christian Willauer

Yeah, I was just gonna say it's a county function, but the county is performing this kind of broader job for the school districts as well, because the school districts collect You know, school tax based on the assessments, and then the other jurisdictions within the county also use those. So I think that just because it's not, it's not just the county doing something for kind of the county's business. This is, it's, it's kind of like the county has this responsibility, but it's really a, it's a broader function. So I think having some state oversight of it would be really important. Yeah.

Representative Romer (Delaware Legislature)

And yeah, and just to also clarify, we would be looking for the state lead initially to coordinate the research and data areas, serve as liaison between Department of Finance, Office of Statewide Planning, and the counties on contracts and system updates, carry out cost and policy analysis the group still needs to do, and develop some written standards and procedures before certification, getting into that quality control piece. Stuart, yes.

Stuart Ramsey (Farm Bureau)

Yeah, in the case of agriculture, I mean, somebody that operates in a kind of a state capacity would be very helpful because, well, in New Castle County, some of the ag examples are so thin that really nobody would have, you know, very good knowledge base of how, you know, of comparatives. Whereas you, you need to look at the whole state. And yeah, I mean, some of the things that happened in this last go-round, I just would venture to say that the errors in agriculture, even though the sum of the errors was not that big, but the size of the errors on a per-property basis were huge. And yeah, it was pretty Pretty challenging situation for sure. So anyhow, somebody that's statewide would, would probably be a positive thing for agriculture.

Secretary Smith

So, Brian, yes, Secretary Smith, to what I'm trying to understand the role, like, obviously, look, there's, there's assessment, which is state law. There's the administration, and then there's the carrying out that state law were done by the 3 counties. And then from that assessment, you have your total taxable assessed classification of property, total taxable assessed values, exemptions, all those wonderful things. And then from that, the counties build their tax rates and school build their tax rates and municipality build their tax rates off that. But there's a process, right? They have an appeal process, which if someone's unhappy with their assessment, they can go through all those channels exist. So are we creating another appeal process? Are we creating something that people are going to appeal to when they're unhappy with what the county does? Is there going to be— and is this more of a— honestly, to be speaking openly here, is it an expense issue? Are we taking over the CAMA system? Are we taking over the assessment system and maintaining it for the counties? How— I guess I'm trying to find out like the value of being involved in it and to what extent we would be involved and what authority we'd have over it.

Representative Romer (Delaware Legislature)

You want to?

Kate (Staff)

Yeah, I think we're more so talking about all of the components like GIS and having a standardized sales validation. And the idea is that a state lead would have the capacity to kind of work with DOF to see how we can avoid duplication in things that the county is already going to be utilizing for their property assessment. And like the conversation with land planning last week, There are those duplicative contracts. So again, the idea with this is shifting cost burdens as well, and all of these pieces and having better information upfront for the counties to use is what should produce better upfront assessment values that are more accurate and reduce the need for appeals. So all of this is the pre-appeals phase.

Representative Romer (Delaware Legislature)

Yeah, and I, I think when you're talking about— I don't anticipate this job being something that people are, you know, elevating those appeals one-offs. I think it's more to identify if there are systemic problems like, wow, you know, the farming or, or, um, you know, we're seeing this in manufactured housing, like seeing really more of those trends, really a state eye on it. I mean, what I don't want to have happen, like right now, like I think the counties have learned so much, but the public, I think, was really looking for the state to, you know, it kind of became our problem, right? It became like, well, what are you going to do about it as the state? And we ended up jumping in and creating policies, but without any sort of oversight on our end, we're, we're, we're creating policies based on a process that we didn't really have any feedback on. And so I think that, you know, again, 48 out of 49 states, you know, have this. You know, I don't want a problem to happen 5, 6, 10 years down the road and be like, well, I thought you guys were going to start having some oversight, or you're going to start working on this, because obviously county management changes as well. And so to have some sort of consistency within the state, I think, would be— Would be a good place. I don't necessarily see this as, you know, it's just going to be one person forever. You know, I understand that that's a lot, but I think it's more of a move in that direction to, you know, I mean, unless, like, I almost feel like unless this working group wants to get, like, staffing and we're going to have policy experts to come in and work on this and start meeting more frequently, the reality is, is that I don't want to micromanage to that point. I don't want to be getting into that level, but we do, I believe, need somebody to. Yes, Bob.

Bob Older

How will this be funded?

Representative Romer (Delaware Legislature)

Through the state.

Bob Older

Say again?

Representative Romer (Delaware Legislature)

Through the state. It would be a state-funded position.

Bob Older

Okay.

Representative Romer (Delaware Legislature)

General fund, I'm assuming. What am I missing? So I guess the question is, does the group support Recommending a dedicated position. This is not, you know, necessarily a vote on what that position ends up looking at. We would have to, like I said, between Justin further define that. But I do want to start at least being able to make decisions. Is this, is this a direction that this group wants to go in? And let's see which analysis should exist. Is there any further? Oh, Representative Spiegelman. Sorry, I didn't see that. Thank you.

Jeff Spiegelman

Thank you. In terms of yes or no to the question you just asked, I'd have to know more before I can answer yes or no. Like, I think we have to define— I'd be willing to explore the option. I'm not willing to vote yes or no on a recommendation that we ask the Joint Finance to create a new position or positions or offices Yet, but I would be in favor of exploring more of what that would look like.

Representative Romer (Delaware Legislature)

Okay, any other feedback?

Bob Older

Well, I kind of— to be honest with you, because until you have a guideline and a systematic procedure of how that will work and what the outcomes are, I'm kind of— We need to set that foundation up there.

Representative Romer (Delaware Legislature)

Sorry, it was a little hard to hear. It was— sorry, it was— can you repeat that, Bob?

Bob Older

I said I kind of agree with Jeff on that. I think we need to have a standard. We need to have some kind of a foundation. We need to have some guidelines before we can agree on that position without just making a blind carte blanche position.

Representative Romer (Delaware Legislature)

I mean, I guess in my opinion, this is what the— I hear you. I hear you. Sorry, I'm like just thinking. I don't want to think out loud on this. I just want to think. Sorry, Christian. Yes.

Christian Willauer

Would it be helpful to define a little bit more clearly the problem that this position would be solving and, you know, a little bit more about their functionality and then have a discussion about that. I do agree. It's hard to say like, oh yeah, we should just have a state position because it's like, well, what would that person be doing? I think it's important to kind of flesh out like what they're, what they're gonna, what the goal is and what that office would be doing.

Representative Romer (Delaware Legislature)

Okay, I feel like somebody else had their hand raised too. Did they? Janelle? Oh, hi, Janelle. I'll mark you present as well. Thank you. Yes.

Janelle Cornwell

So, yeah, I think I agree with everybody else. It's just like, are there examples of kind of what we're thinking in other states that do something like this? And that, can we have like examples of what they do there, so then we can make a better informed decision to hopefully support something. Because I think we all recognize there's— we need this, the counties need some resources and some assistance. But what that looks like, I think, is really what we're looking for. Thank you.

Representative Romer (Delaware Legislature)

Thanks, Janelle. Okay, I mean, we can have Justin, I guess, you know, create— I mean, the reality is other states have lots of people doing these things. I mean, I do hear the group. I don't think we're going to get to a point where we're going to, in this particular fiscal year, say, all right, let's create 8 positions in the state. Yeah. But I also know we need people to really dive into these things and not, and not just focus on not having us do policy and that micro-level management work that needs to be done to create some of these, this coordination with the counties and, but I understand. I think we can put together You know, a problem statement for the counties. Yeah, we can do that. We have, like I said, we have presented some of that before about what other states do. Like I said, we're, we definitely are in the minority. I, Justin, I don't know, is there any state that has one person? I highly doubt it. This is really— I am not aware of one.

Justin Imer (IAAO)

I mean, I would think in the end you would have maybe 3 people. That is, I am just really ballparking it, but— Yeah. That is, you know, you could have someone that is kind of the lead, the director, someone that is a specialist in assessment, and then you might have like a data analyst, statistician type of person that is kind of taking in that data and crunching it and trying to figure out where potential issues are at.

Representative Romer (Delaware Legislature)

Okay. So I guess what I'm hearing is no, there's not going to be a motion to support making the dedicated position. We're going to have to do some additional work on this. Okay. The second is a recommendation we were looking to make was recommending a one-time state-funded funding for independent ratio study reviews for the upcoming assessment and providing for additional quality control measures. We really wanted to— one of the things we've heard from this group is that, you know, they would appreciate state funding. But what I'm hearing from— I just want to have a really open conversation about it. What I'm hearing though, you know, offline is nobody— people weren't really comfortable with just handing over the county's money and saying, you know, here's $1 million, you know, to go towards your assessment. They felt more comfortable looking at ways that we can take over things like the GIS, um, or, or funding things like that. Um, and so we wanted to talk about whether or not, um, you'd be interested in one-time funding for this next review for independent ratio studies. I don't know, Justin, if you have anything to kind of add to that or how that helps and plays a role.

Justin Imer (IAAO)

Yeah, I, I think the ratio study is good, but that's something that happens sort of towards the end of the reassessment process. So I think You know, someone looking at data to make sure that all the data was collected properly, everything, all the models have been reviewed properly and look like they meet best practices. And just someone that's kind of looking at the process along just to support the counties and what they're doing and make sure things are consistent statewide, I think would be good.

Representative Romer (Delaware Legislature)

Yeah, and so we would be looking at either IAAO or some sort of qualified independent entity and to have this, the state fund that as a one-time. I think one of the things that Justin has said in the past is, you know, you haven't done this in 40 years, which we all agree. But every time you do it, it's going to get better and better. And so this is really that next reassessment time. Yes, Representative Spiegelman.

Jeff Spiegelman

Thank you. And I think we talked about the funding for the GIS updates, which has benefits beyond just the reassessment, and it also creates a one statewide program. And I think things like that could probably be handled pretty quickly since we're going to need to do it quickly, might be able to be handled pretty quickly in the mini bond in January. So I do think that there is an avenue through for one-time money to shore up the state's infrastructure to assist the counties on that. And I'm much more in favor of that than I am the idea of creating long-term positions. Okay. without full knowledge of how many we're going to need and what their authority is going to be. Now, obviously, we're going to need to know what the cost is. Yes. But— and obviously, that's a huge question, but I think that's really worth exploring and an actionable item that we can do in the next 2 months.

Representative Romer (Delaware Legislature)

Okay. Yeah, we need to look at cost, timing, and the scope, and I think we can Between Justin and the counties who already had to, you know, pay for that in their last assessment, and just, I think we can get that information if it's, if it's something the group wants to move forward with. I think we can get that information within the next, like, month. Any other comments?

Representative Romer (Delaware Legislature)

I agree. I mean, I think within the— let me ask you this. In the— I mean, we would, Justin, when we hired, like, let's say we hired somebody to do that, I would imagine that the— and the counties might be able to speak up on this as well. You have standards set within your contracts with your vendor. And then we would align those standards with the independent consultant that, or whatever, that we hired to do these ratio studies. Is that how that would work? Yeah. Oh, sorry.

Justin Imer (IAAO)

No, go ahead.

Kate (Staff)

The reason also that we wanted to move towards a state position is that contracting IAIO on a one-time basis Um, doesn't help the state get to a point where the, the benchmark standards are written in code anywhere, or figuring out what do you do if a standard isn't met. And I think that's also the idea behind a statewide person. And Representative Spiegelman, to your point about GIS and the contract and that being a good area to explore and needing to look at the analysis and align those contracts. Yeah. The idea is also that a state person can, like, right up front and, you know, serve as that liaison to help keep pushing these things forward because the working group doesn't necessarily have the capacity to be doing full cost analysis, full work with the Office of Land Planning because this isn't a funded mandate for them right now. So who is coordinating and driving that? So that's kind of— Yeah. The push for a state person, but also the second decision about one-time funding is more so that we can provide a quality control in the interim until a person can be brought on full-time.

Justin Imer (IAAO)

So IAO standards are updated every so often too, and so I would recommend against, you know, creating law that is specific to the current standards because the standards do change every so often, and I think it's kind kind of problematic to have to reopen the books every time the standard's updated. So I think having someone in a position at the state that can kind of interpret those standards for the state and apply them is important. I think statute should just look at, you know, using IAAO standards and just kind of end there, and then let that person kind of figure out how best to apply it, or whoever is in charge of that department. Just because they do change and there's going to be different nuances going on with those changes that are going to have to be considered.

Representative Romer (Delaware Legislature)

That's a good point. Bob, and then Christian.

Bob Older

So I'm just curious about something, and I may have missed this at a previous meeting that I missed, but are— I know right now all 3 counties do these very, very differently. Are they all in favor of the State having one mandate for all 3 counties?

Representative Romer (Delaware Legislature)

I, I mean, I don't think— and Justin, you can probably chime in here— I don't think we're looking at, you know, there, there shouldn't be— and Justin, very much correct me if I'm wrong— there shouldn't be necessarily different standards for sales ratio in Sussex County versus New Castle County, probably not differences between Kansas and Delaware, right, Justin? I mean, these are state— these are—

Justin Imer (IAAO)

It would be good if the math was done exactly the same in every county, and then that way you make sure you've got consistency across the state. If you've got property owners that own property in different counties, you know, they should, they should be kind of treated equally. They should understand the processes should be the same in each county. Hopefully everyone could kind of agree on, on what best practices look like there.

Representative Romer (Delaware Legislature)

And I think that's the, that's the reason we're going towards, you know, national standards or international standards. Someone else have their hand up? No? Okay. Um, but it is why we have all 3 counties represented on the, on the working group as well. So, um, we would be looking at, um—

Kate (Staff)

For the one-time funding?

Representative Romer (Delaware Legislature)

Yeah, for the one-time funding. Um, you know, we're not going to have some permanent framework, but we, we do need to start thinking about, um, to Jeff's point about mini bond, or whether it's going to be in the governor's budget, um, lower the, the cost to the counties. By doing these independent reviews, as opposed to having them have to pay for them themselves, and really focusing on that quality and uniformity check of the vendor. And regardless of what vendor is, you know, selected, it's typically Tyler. It has been in the past, but who knows, you know, it could be different even for different counties. And then to inform, you know, future standards based on that. How is the group feeling about supporting a recommendation for the one-time state funding for this ratio study? Is there a motion? Is there more conversation? Representative Spiegelman.

Jeff Spiegelman

Thank you. Yeah, I mean, I'm not sure I'm making a motion to approve anything. I think we should certainly make a motion to explore this again. I mean, it's— we need to explore the cost and we need to explore What we're paying for. But since that's the case, if you're looking for a motion, I'd like to make a motion to explore the one-time cost items that we have outlined as part of the state's burden when it comes to reassessment.

Representative Romer (Delaware Legislature)

Thank you. And that really is what we're looking for. You know, I just like to Kate's point, this is an unfunded, you know, working group and making sure that we You know, just don't kind of waste time going down routes that people are completely uncomfortable with. So, all right, do I have a second?

David Del Grande

Second, Dave Del Grande.

Representative Romer (Delaware Legislature)

Thank you, David. All right, so the motion is to further explore and maybe get some funding estimates on the state funding for the independent ratios for the counties. Representative Romer, yes. Representative Spiegelman?

Jeff Spiegelman

So I'm mute. Yes.

Representative Romer (Delaware Legislature)

Okay. Yes. Senator Buckson, absent. Senator Mantzavinos, absent. Gina Jennings or her proxy? Yes. Yes, thank you. Susan Durham or proxy?

Kate (Committee staff)

Susan is in the attendee list. She needs to be moved up.

Representative Romer (Delaware Legislature)

Oh.

Justin Imer (IAAO)

I'm sorry, before we move forward, do we want to include just the ratios, or do you want to look at— At like a more conclusive oversight of data and models and that kind of thing.

Kate (Staff)

We can explore both of these, and this can kind of be the topic of next week's— okay, the upcoming meeting, I think.

Representative Romer (Delaware Legislature)

Okay, we can include those. Again, that's not to say that everyone's approving that. It's just that we're approving getting that additional information. Okay. Susan Durham? I'll come back to you. David Del Grande?

David Del Grande

Yes.

Representative Romer (Delaware Legislature)

Yes. Janelle Cornwell? Yes. Yes. Christian Willauer? Yes. Yes. Secretary Smith?

Secretary Smith

I'm abstaining.

Representative Romer (Delaware Legislature)

Abstain. Bob Older?

Bob Older

Yes.

Representative Romer (Delaware Legislature)

Yes. Richard Morse? Absent. And Justin Imer? Abstain. Yes, I understand. All right. Okay, so we will get additional information on the statewide position. But as far as this position, as far as the one-time funding, we'll move forward with that. Thank you. For further conversations, as always. If there's nothing else, we can move to public comment. Okay. And we'll try to have some of this information for the next meeting. And Stuart, we'll send you all the minutes from the other previous meetings.

Stuart Ramsey (Farm Bureau)

Yep. Thank you.

Representative Romer (Delaware Legislature)

Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for joining.

Kate (Committee staff)

It doesn't look like we have any in-person public comment. Do we have any virtual public comment?

Representative Romer (Delaware Legislature)

No, don't think so. All right, then. No. Oh, sorry. Yes, Christopher Rowe, you have 2 minutes. Please speak on the topic. And Kate, you are— you'll have to unmute yourself. It should pop up asking you to unmute.

Christopher Rowe

Can you hear me now?

Representative Romer (Delaware Legislature)

Yes, yes. And also, Senator Buxton, I'll mark you present for the end. Yes, Christopher. Hi, Christopher. Oh, sorry, Senator Buxton, did you want to say something?

Eric Buckson (Delaware Senate)

Okay.

Representative Romer (Delaware Legislature)

Okay. Christopher Rowe, you have 2 minutes to speak.

Christopher Rowe

Yeah, I just have like 10 seconds, all I need. Yeah, I would say that everybody that voted yes on the motion, I would agree with. Not that my vote counts, but I'm certainly a citizen. And I heard the term power technologies come out. You know, we look at things, we're not sitting at the table with you. We can join while we have time because most of these meetings are overlapping and we can I'm on 3 meetings right now on 3 different phones. But if there's anybody out there aside from Tower Technologies, because perception-wise, the taxpayers are not going to, you know, act too happy about hiring them or whatever. If you can avoid it, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know who's out there that can do anything. Yeah. that they can do, but, you know, it's kind of a, uh, one of those companies that people don't look too fondly upon. So that's it.

Representative Romer (Delaware Legislature)

Thank you for your comment. I appreciate it.

Christopher Rowe

You're welcome.

Representative Romer (Delaware Legislature)

Um, Shannon Taibiri, you have 2 minutes, um, to speak on the working group. Welcome.

Shannon Tiberi

Sorry, I was waiting for the unmute option.

Representative Romer (Delaware Legislature)

That's okay. That's okay. Hi, Kim.

Shannon Tiberi

Hello. Just want to piggyback on Christopher's comment, actually, because I did— there is a YouTube video out there of the initial RFP meeting where it did actually have the other bidders, and it had Tyler. It had Pearson's is one I think that had done work for us in the past. I personally spoke with the owner, and they were not given the same timeline as Tyler.

Shannon Taibiri

A direct quote from the owner of the competitor was that if they had been given the same timeline as Tyler, they would have been able to bid more competitively.

Shannon Tiberi

So I want to throw that out there for how this all came about with Tyler, because we know there's a string of litigation across this country, even including pay-to-play with certain elected officials in Illinois. So there is— there are a lot of concerns with Tyler Technology, and we saw You know, a lot of the ramifications that we're still dealing with today with appeals and things like that. So if there are other options, I think that's obviously the way to go. But I would just caution just to, you know, go back to that initial RFP.

Shannon Taibiri

I don't know why Tyler was given a different set of standards than other bidders, but I think, you know, let's make sure we have a level playing field.

Representative Romer (Delaware Legislature)

Thank you, Shannon. Can I, uh— Oh yes, go ahead, Senator Buckson.

Eric Buckson

A couple things. Um, so I was able to listen in, but I wasn't a panelist, so I wasn't able to vote, which is okay. But I would like to go on record as supporting the motion, um, as it was presented by Representative Spiegelman. I am intrigued by the testimony I just heard from Ms. Tiberi, which is news to me, so I'd like to have a better understanding of what that means. I think that's a relevant concern. I'd like to have a better understanding of the apples-to-apples bid opportunity.

Eric Buckson

So anyway, thanks for the time and appreciate your work.

Representative Romer (Delaware Legislature)

Thank you, Senator. And we do have one more public comment. Rinku Banerjee. I hope I'm pronouncing that right. Apologize. And there you go. You have 2 minutes to speak on the working group property tax topic. You can speak. You're on— you're off mute, but we can't hear you.

Bob Wasserbach (New Castle County Auditor)

Hello, can you hear me?

Representative Romer (Delaware Legislature)

Yeah, we can hear you now.

Bob Wasserbach (New Castle County Auditor)

Okay, this is actually Bob Wasserbach, the new Castle County Auditor. I'm at Rinku Banerjee's computer.

Representative Romer (Delaware Legislature)

Oh, okay. That's right. Thank you for clarifying.

Bob Wasserbach (New Castle County Auditor)

He works for me. Yeah.

Bob Wasserbach (New Castle County Auditor)

Thank you. My understanding— or what about the models themselves that the vendor uses to calculate the property value? My understanding is that If a citizen called in to any of the counties and asked, can you tell me specifically how my property value was calculated, that a county would not be able to do it because the models use multiple regression analysis and use algorithms, and there's all these different variables. It's like a big black box. What about engaging somebody to ascertain that the models that the vendor uses work the way they're supposed to work. I'm interested in anybody's thoughts on that.

Representative Romer (Delaware Legislature)

Thank you, Bob. And we can, we can absolutely discuss that potentially at a future meeting. Thank you. Appreciate that. All right. There's no other public comments, so we are going to adjourn and we will send out the information and offline, maybe have some conversations about this. So thank you all so much.

Stuart Ramsey (Farm Bureau)

Thank you. Thank you, everybody. Yep. Bye. Have a good day.